v. 4.1 - where has the option to put flag into the statusbar

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DaveG
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Re: v. 4.1 - where has the option to put flag into the statu

Post by DaveG » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:45 pm

zoom314 wrote:But then they still don't listen to Me about the backspace bug, FF moves a page I'm on back to a previous web page all automatically, It's quite annoying
That's a feature that you can turn off and is off by default on some operating systems. It's off by default for me here on Linux. If you want to change it, just change the browser.backspace_action pref in about config. You don't even need an extension for that. It probably should be off for everyone, though, so I do agree with you on that part.
zoom314 wrote:What about the Navigation Bar? As the Weather Bug can locate there, As can Adblock+ and their happy to be up there too.
The Flagfox icon is location information in the location bar, first of all. As to putting it in the navigation (tool)bar, that's the same request as adding it to the add-on bar; turning the Flagfox icon into a toolbar button would allow for any placement, including even the tab bar and menu bar. The flag icon simply is not big enough to be a toolbar button; just take a look at the default mode, big icons. The flag is nowhere near big enough for that and I'm not going to include a third set of flag icons to really bloat up the installer size just for that. Even finding suitable big icons would be problematic, actually.
rmgalley wrote:The old-style Status Bar may no longer exist but Mozilla have thoughtfully, in Version 4.0, given us the option of an 'Add-on Bar' located in the same place as the old Status Bar (View/Toolbars). All my other add-ons are successfully located in the Add-on Bar, working as intended and it's business a usual - except there is no option to locate the Flagfox icon there.
You clearly didn't read or care to understand my initial post on this topic on the blog. As state above, the flags aren't big enough and location information belongs in the location bar anyway. The add-on bar is also hidden by default and has a close button on it, meaning it's designed to be hidden by default for most people most of the time.
rmgalley wrote:I cannot believe the arrogance of the developer.
I cannot believe the arrogance of some of the complainers here. This is an icon in a slightly different location than you were used to. The righteous indignation at a change in software written and maintained for free is one of those things that discourages developers from wanting to deal with their users at all.
rmgalley wrote:At the risk of antagonising the developer by my initial reaction to this seemingly cavalier approach to 'it's being done this way - take it or leave it' I would, never-the-less, urge an option to make available the placement of the Flagfox icon in the new Add-on Bar.
I think one of the things that encourages the demands and clueless requests is the fact that most if not all of you don't seem to comprehend that there isn't some magical system built into Firefox to just move an icon wherever you want that I'm just not using. You can write in that for toolbar buttons, sure, and as I already said that's not an option here for reasons beyond the above. To put it into the address bar, which was the default option for good reason and is now the only option, I have to overlay the XUL myself. (to do both would require some new coding, which while doable, would not be worth the mess) Previously, it was overlaid hidden into the general window, then a relatively messy dynamic positioning function would check the Flagfox prefs and manipulate the window DOM to pick it up, remove and replace the wrapper as needed for its destination location, then move it into place and show it. This is a mildly complicated thing that I am quite glad that I don't need to do anymore. In the past, there were other extensions or garbage external softwares that would break things here. (they shouldn't, but sadly they did) Dropping this old thing leads to a faster startup and less mess.
zoom314 wrote:Yes that sounds like the Mozilla attitude with Me too... I mean We use FF too, I'd wish they'd listen to US more. I feel the users and the extension devs are at their tender mercies. add-on bar, Sounds like the old Status bar to Me, But what do I know? I just use FF.
This is a fundamental flaw in the way you and some others, like may politicians, think. Just because you have a few people that agree with you and you don't hear others that don't, does not mean that you speak for everyone or even a large minority. Mozilla did what most of their users want: streamlined the interface, freed up more screen space for the actual web pages, and made a browser more accessible to more people. Sure, there will be transition issues, but in the long (or even slightly longer than short) run they made the right move and the vast majority of Firefox users will be quite happy with their overall UI progression. Sure, of course there will be nit-picking on parts, but by and large most people can agree that Firefox 3.x needed a UI overhaul to move forward. If you can't stand that, you're in the distinct minority, but then again you also can just use other addons to customize it more if you want.

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kuabba82
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Re: v. 4.1 - where has the option to put flag into the statu

Post by kuabba82 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:07 pm

DaveG wrote:
rmgalley wrote:The old-style Status Bar may no longer exist but Mozilla have thoughtfully, in Version 4.0, given us the option of an 'Add-on Bar' located in the same place as the old Status Bar (View/Toolbars). All my other add-ons are successfully located in the Add-on Bar, working as intended and it's business a usual - except there is no option to locate the Flagfox icon there.
You clearly didn't read or care to understand my initial post on this topic on the blog. As state above, the flags aren't big enough and location information belongs in the location bar anyway. The add-on bar is also hidden by default and has a close button on it, meaning it's designed to be hidden by default for most people most of the time.
And what happens if I try to install Flagfox 4.0.14 on FF 4.0, perhaps bypassing version control? Where is the icon located?
However even if not by default, also the status bar can be hidden, and I guess that people who use it prefer that flagfox is there and not on the address bar.
So in FF 4.0 there is not the status bar? No problem, you can start enabling the feature to put the icon in the add on bar, and you can put it by default in the address bar, so people who want to use add on bar can CHOOSE if Flagfox must be on it or in the address bar.

The problem is that the icons aren't big enough? Let's go, just create bigger ones, don't miss in a glass of water, as we say here in Italy...

zoom314
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Re: v. 4.1 - where has the option to put flag into the statu

Post by zoom314 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:24 pm

DaveG wrote:
zoom314 wrote:But then they still don't listen to Me about the backspace bug, FF moves a page I'm on back to a previous web page all automatically, It's quite annoying
That's a feature that you can turn off and is off by default on some operating systems. It's off by default for me here on Linux. If you want to change it, just change the browser.backspace_action pref in about config. You don't even need an extension for that. It probably should be off for everyone, though, so I do agree with you on that part.
I switched that from 0 to 1, If off is zero, then It's broken in Windows XP, Vista and 7, If off is 1, then 1 should be the default.
DaveG wrote:
zoom314 wrote:What about the Navigation Bar? As the Weather Bug can locate there, As can Adblock+ and their happy to be up there too.
The Flagfox icon is location information in the location bar, first of all. As to putting it in the navigation (tool)bar, that's the same request as adding it to the add-on bar; turning the Flagfox icon into a toolbar button would allow for any placement, including even the tab bar and menu bar. The flag icon simply is not big enough to be a toolbar button; just take a look at the default mode, big icons. The flag is nowhere near big enough for that and I'm not going to include a third set of flag icons to really bloat up the installer size just for that. Even finding suitable big icons would be problematic, actually.
As to the icon size, the weather bug has icons that are no bigger than Flagfox and It looks ok in the Add-on bar, So I'd have no objection to that location, but If You think that only BIG icons can go there, Then others do disagree on that, But to each their own I guess.

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DaveG
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Re: v. 4.1 - where has the option to put flag into the statu

Post by DaveG » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:25 pm

zoom314 wrote:
DaveG wrote:f you want to change it, just change the browser.backspace_action pref in about config.
I switched that from 0 to 1, If off is zero, then It's broken in Windows XP, Vista and 7, If off is 1, then 1 should be the default.
No, read the article I linked to. For that pref, setting it to 0 makes backspace go back in the history, setting it to 1 makes it scroll the page up, and setting it to 2 makes the backspace key do nothing. Set it to 2 to do what you want.
zoom314 wrote:If You think that only BIG icons can go there, Then others do disagree on that, But to each their own I guess.
Oh, don't get me wrong, it's not a matter of "only"; it's that big icons are the default and exist. If only small icons existed for toolbars then I might've considered adding the ability to turn it into a toolbar button (but maybe not). It's just that it can't support big icon mode so it can't be done even if it could theoretically be done the non-default small icons mode. Now, if I were to not create a full toolbar button to just support the add-on bar where things are smaller (but still a little bigger than the status bar was) then I'd have to mix things in by force, which again is probably doable, but I considered it and it's just not worth the work and maintenance.
kuabba82 wrote:And what happens if I try to install Flagfox 4.0.14 on FF 4.0, perhaps bypassing version control? Where is the icon located?
Nowhere; you'll get an error message. Flagfox 4.0.14 will actually complain and point you to the newer version. If it didn't, instead it would have an error on trying to load the IPDB file which can't be read correctly by Flagfox 4.0.x under Firefox 4+ without some changes that are only in Flagfox 4.1+.
kuabba82 wrote:No problem, you can start enabling the feature to put the icon in the add on bar, and you can put it by default in the address bar, so people who want to use add on bar can CHOOSE if Flagfox must be on it or in the address bar.

The problem is that the icons aren't big enough? Let's go, just create bigger ones, don't miss in a glass of water, as we say here in Italy...
This is by far the most arrogant demand I've heard yet. You want me to personally create over 200 high-detail flag icons? I didn't make the other 2 sets; see the about dialog. They were made by others who graciously did it for free and gave permission for others to use them as needed. Me making a whole new high-detail flag icon set is just way out of the question. I've looked for other sets in the past, but then again, even if I wanted to include it, the result would be a doubling of the installer size for every update which would piss off way more people than cared about the status bar.

Also, with localized software you can't just "do" something like this. To add an option I need to get the strings for the option in the options dialog translated into 3 dozen languages, which with an all volunteer translator group takes a good month (most are done fast, but there's always a bunch that take forever due to busy translators). Even if I wanted to cater to just you and the few dozen who complain about it (maybe a few hundred that would use it), ignoring the fact that the other million that updated already are just fine with things, it's not a snap my fingers and it's done sort of thing. I don't want to bother the translators with this and have already stated many reasons why I don't want to write it in the first place. Arguing with me is not going to change anything.

Let me just state this again to be clear:
total number of Flagfox users: 1.5 million
Flagfox 4.1 users thus far: ~1 million
people who cared about the old positioning feature: hundreds or maybe thousands (there's no way to tell)
people who have complained about it being removed: dozens

Even if I were to take a vote, which is a bad way to write software, those who want the repositioning options desperately are vastly outnumbered. You're just louder.

zoom314
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Re: v. 4.1 - where has the option to put flag into the statu

Post by zoom314 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:21 pm

Well now that I've read all this, I give up, I'll still run Flagfox, But then I've now gotten everything out of the status bar and shut the status bar off. So since It is inevitable, Then I'll simply have to adapt to what can be done.

rmgalley
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Re: v. 4.1 - where has the option to put flag into the statu

Post by rmgalley » Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:24 am

Well, I must apologise. I hadn't seen the reference to the explanation at http://flagfox.wordpress.com/2011/01/30 ... g-options/. I just came to this forum to find an explanation expecting all relevant information to be in this thread. Additionally I must correct the version of Firefox currently installed. It is v4.0 RC 1.

Having read the explanation I think it entirely predictable the outrage from some of us with the removal of the Status Bar option without providing one in the Add-on Toolbar. (Quote: I had my fair share of rude feedback when I just moved the icon up to the address bar by default even when I still let you move it back). For some reason the developers of 'Adblock Plus', 'Reminderfox', 'IE Tab2' and 'Forecastfox Weather' seem to have seamlessly been able to provide their information icons in the Add-ons Toolbar, which is to me the logical place. I do have to admit to one other add-on, 'NoScript', having migrated unbidden to top of my display without an option for a placement in the Add-ons Toolbar.

I have absolutely no coding skills but the size of my currently available icons in the Add-ons Toolbar look identical in size to the Flagfox icon now residing in the Address Bar. Nor am I aware of any difference in size between the old Status and new Add-on Bars. The fact that the Add-on Bar was hidden by default and now has a built-in close button (and will have a keyboard shortcut to show and hide it) is hardly relevant. The option to display the Add-on Bar, once made, means I will display it at all times as a repository of useful information which I can see at a glance. The Flagfox icon is such a long way positionally on my (large) display I have to go searching for it. I beg to differ; this is not an icon in a slightly different location than I was used to - in my situation it is 35cm removed from its preferred location. For me bottom right is the location for concise information on what is happening/what is running on my PC (XP Pro SP3).

I can see my, and the protestations of others, are going to have no influence on the restoration of a feature we have come to rely on (even love - but maybe that would be going too far). By analogy all I would say is, although I have no musical expertise or playing skills, I know as the 'listener' (or 'customer') what I like and I am aware of a poor performance or bum notes. It beats me why, when Mozilla have provided an option for an Add-on Bar for exactly such a thing as Flagfox, you are so determined we shall not have it there.

I will probably still use Flagfox but am resentful of the 'I know best' attitude.

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DaveG
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Re: v. 4.1 - where has the option to put flag into the statu

Post by DaveG » Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:47 am

rmgalley wrote:For some reason the developers of 'Adblock Plus', 'Reminderfox', 'IE Tab2' and 'Forecastfox Weather' seem to have seamlessly been able to provide their information icons in the Add-ons Toolbar, which is to me the logical place.
Actually, no they haven't. To quote from my blog post on the topic:
DaveG wrote:There’s currently a shim/hack “status-bar” ID widget in the add-on bar that allows for an odd backwards compatibility attempt but this will eventually be removed at some unknown time and I don’t want to rely on this explicitly transient hack. (I don’t even agree with Mozilla’s reasoning to put this hack in there in the first place)
Basically, there's a fake staus bar like element inside the add-on bar to allow add-ons that used to go into the status bar to not have an error, however it's on the right side only and thus the old Flagfox positioning options didn't work with it fully. It has been explicity stated by Mozilla that this is a temporary measure and it is going away at some unknown time, so I really don't want to rewrite things to handle the thing only to have it yanked out from under things in the near future. Additionally it would make things more complicated to support both it and the real status bar in Firefox 3.5/3.6 and SeaMonkey. One of the primary reasons I got rid of the repositioning support entirely is that to continue to support Firefox 3.5/3.6 and SeaMonkey whilst still supporting the new setup in Firefox 4+ would have been a bit of a complex mess. Yes, it'd be doable, but not worth the time it would take to not only write it but test it.

Addons that currently use this will break when they remove the status bar shim. I don't know when it's going away, but it's probably very soon at least for Trunk (in other words, it'll be in Firefox 4.0 but development builds will get rid of it soon, and it then won't be in Firefox 5.0, which they say will be in only months this time around).
rmgalley wrote:I have absolutely no coding skills but the size of my currently available icons in the Add-ons Toolbar look identical in size to the Flagfox icon now residing in the Address Bar. Nor am I aware of any difference in size between the old Status and new Add-on Bars.
The addon bar is just a toolbar. To add real support is to add a toolbar button, which then necessarily would be place-able anywhere including places with large icons. I'm not going to add something half-way; if a toolbar button can't work everywhere, I'm not adding support for it.
rmgalley wrote:The fact that the Add-on Bar was hidden by default and now has a built-in close button (and will have a keyboard shortcut to show and hide it) is hardly relevant. The option to display the Add-on Bar, once made, means I will display it at all times as a repository of useful information which I can see at a glance.
This part has divided users into factions: those who want to use the addon bar all the time and those who hide and show it as needed. There are users on both sides but currently Mozilla is gearing towards the latter in many cases. Because it's off by default and most people use defaults, that means that very few people will use it, thus making it only worth supporting if you really need the space, which Flagfox doesn't.
rmgalley wrote:It beats me why, when Mozilla have provided an option for an Add-on Bar for exactly such a thing as Flagfox
No, not really. Just because the word "addon" is in the name doesn't mean every addon needs to go there. It's just a plain old toolbar on the bottom, really.
rmgalley wrote:... you are so determined we shall not have it there.

I will probably still use Flagfox but am resentful of the 'I know best' attitude.
There's the weird demanding attitude again, and this time I don't even think you quite understand why this is nuts, frankly. I have 1.5 million users. If I were to do whatever any one or group of them asked, Flagfox would be a god awful mess and I'd still have people yelling at me to do opposite things.

Writing support for a toolbar button for the flag icon would be messy and mostly pointless, with lots of extra code to maintain and test, and I just don't have the time to add options just because a few dozen people want them. Please try to understand this.

zoom314
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Re: v. 4.1 - where has the option to put flag into the statu

Post by zoom314 » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:39 am

Well I see Your points, Besides I do some work on Seti@Home crunching numbers and most who do this also don't come to the forums there. At least Flagfox works and is informative on most websites I've seen, As some like to hide where their based at. We're pretty much stuck I guess... I'll keep on using Flagfox as I find It useful.

Beauty
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Re: v. 4.1 - where has the option to put flag into the statu

Post by Beauty » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:16 pm

DaveG wrote:flags aren't big enough ... Even finding suitable big icons would be problematic
Well, this is a good notice. A solution: Keep the pixel size of the flag symbols and fill up the rest by transparent pixel. Then the flags are looking smaller, then buttons, but still equal to now.
even if I wanted to include it, the result would be a doubling of the installer size
I could have a try. Maybe the icon size isn't much more bigger when we fill up the image border with transparent pixels because of image compression. What's the needed size(s)?
DaveG wrote: and location information belongs in the location bar anyway.
This is you point of you. However, not everybody shares the same opinion.
DaveG wrote:The add-on bar is also hidden by default
Some people want to keep it visible all the time and want to see the flag there.
Even when the big crowd doesn't do so, it would be nice to have an option for people who want it.

Writing support for a toolbar button for the flag icon would be messy and mostly pointless, with lots of extra code to maintain and test, and I just don't have the time
I don't shout to you. I'm also a software developer and know the (sometimes hute) effort to implement tiny looking things.
I respect that you don't want to re-add an option for an alternative display position.
I just want to tell my personal opinion (and whish).


An other thing:
In this topic I learned about the plans of Firefox to remove the status bar.
I like the feature very much to see there what's the real URL of a link.
Now I know the plan and will give the Firefox developers a feedback that I would like to have an option to keep/enable this feature. (Or an option to show the status bar in the button bar.)
So thanks for the note about the planned Firefox changes.

Related to the flag: Maybe it's just a matter of habit.

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DaveG
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Re: v. 4.1 - where has the option to put flag into the statu

Post by DaveG » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:04 pm

Beauty wrote:
DaveG wrote:flags aren't big enough ... Even finding suitable big icons would be problematic
Well, this is a good notice. A solution: Keep the pixel size of the flag symbols and fill up the rest by transparent pixel. Then the flags are looking smaller, then buttons, but still equal to now.
Images can be centered in whatever XUL container they're in; no need for transparency. The problem is the actual size, not the image dimensions. The flag icons are 18x12 pixels, and the second set is upscaled to by a few to even get to that size. The other location indicators that can show in the same spot are 16x16. For big icons I would need them to be 24x24 for Linux or at least 20x20 for Mac. (there's also padding beyond that, so if I use smaller icons it'd be quite noticeable) Since the flags are non-square, really I'd need 20 or 24px wide, so basically I have a 1/3 shortfall in size. The icons can't really be upscaled to fit that space, as they barely have enough detail as-is and would just be blurry blobs at larger sizes. (as apposed to smaller more defined blobs that some of them are right now ;) ) Again, I just don't think it's worth doing, and I really don't want to add what would need to be quite a lot of complexity and files for a minor feature that I don't think is warranted.

I put a lot of effort and time adding (and committed to more future time for maintenance and testing) IPv6 support to Flagfox 4.1 because it was needed. The option to move around the flag to a place the user thinks is more pretty just isn't needed.
Beauty wrote:I could have a try.
This just isn't getting done. If somebody knows of a good complete SVG flag set, I might consider looking into them for sometime in the future at least for some uses, but for now this is going to be the way it is. (Wikipedia has a lot of SVG flags, but I think I'd have to download them all individually and they may actually be too detailed in some cases for use in smaller sizes) If I want bigger flags, SVG really is the way to go. It would at least be nice if I could show full-detailed flags in the tooltip or maybe just use them on Geotool or something.
Beauty wrote:
DaveG wrote: and location information belongs in the location bar anyway.
This is you point of you. However, not everybody shares the same opinion.
Well, clearly. But the thing is that you have to agree that it is a point that makes sense. The reason I state it is to try and diffuse the (frankly odd) fury that the flag must be in the now removed status bar.
Beauty wrote:In this topic I learned about the plans of Firefox to remove the status bar.
I like the feature very much to see there what's the real URL of a link.
Now I know the plan and will give the Firefox developers a feedback that I would like to have an option to keep/enable this feature. (Or an option to show the status bar in the button bar.)
So thanks for the note about the planned Firefox changes.
Not planned, done. Firefox 4.0 is currently in the release candidate stage and will be released very soon. Please don't bug them about it more; they're getting way more and meaner hate mail than they should about it, and even well-intentioned complaints are just adding to a pointless din.

As to what was in the status bar, the status text and link URL on hover show in a popup bubble in the lower corner. Initially they didn't have the status text but it was added later upon much user request.
Beauty wrote:Related to the flag: Maybe it's just a matter of habit.
This may actually be the most important point in this thread, honestly. The flag position doesn't need to be changeable, some people are just used to it where it was and didn't want to change their habit. With Firefox 4.0 you're going to probably have to change some other habits too, hopefully for the better.

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